Self Knowledge Symposium
A recent conversation

Email conversation Note from the Webmaster: I intend to update this page every few weeks or months, replacing this with a new conversation when one really catches my eye. The object is just to give you a feeling for the sorts of conversations that we have.

This particular dialogue struck me as a good representative conversation because it wanders through several topics, including literature, philosophy, religion, and the personal lives of the people discussing it—and yet it focuses everything on the nature of the self.

The entire conversation took place by email. I have cut some text that was about completely different topics, and added one Web link to the reading list when it is referenced, but other than that I have done no editing.

Neil Mikeska:
Hello,

I have began chipping away at the reading list from the web page. Over the break, I read Heart of Darkness and this is what I got from it:

With all of Kurtz's inspiration, wisdom, and good intentions he did not have the restraint to keep him from becoming caught up in the race to find more ivory, thus he became engulfed in all that is evil.

So one can conclude that restraint and humility are important characteristics to keep a balanced life. For without them, as illustrated in the Heart of Darkness, one will quickly become consumed in evil.

******
On the topic of Zen: (disclaimer—I have not studied Zen, but I am curious)

If everyone practiced these philosophies then no one would have the passion, sorrow, or any emotion to create art. As I understand it Zen philosophies=emotional nihilism. Is there a place in life for intense emotion?

Thanks for your comments,

Neil

Ed Cheely:
I didn't see so much that Kurtz was consumed by the evil of greed for ivory. Instead, he made a journey back to the world of the savage, and it was there that he rediscovered the primordial roots of man. In the uncivilized world, one kills, one rules by power, one indulges the senses—there are no more moral codes. It's like when Martin Sheen responds to Kurtz (Marlin Brando) in Apocalypse Now: "I don't see any method here at all." I should admit that while I've read Heart of Darkness, my impressions are taken a lot from the movie Apocalypse Now. The world of the savage is chaos, and that is what Kurtz loses himself in—he no longer has the capacity to choose right versus wrong. He has penetrated into the depths of man's heart, and he has not been able to overcome the capacity for evil and savagery that he found there. What is so terrifying about the book is that one sees how our "civilization" is only a thin verneer covering our savage and carnal desires, the desires we have tried for so long to push down and forget about. Once stripped away, however, there is no telling what you may find in there.

I've only read a smattering of stuff on Zen, but if you look at the poetry and art that has been produced by teachers and followers of the path of Zen, you would find tremendous beauty. Zen is not about becoming a lifeless rock with no more capacity for feeling or emotion. It is simply about detaching yourself from them so you aren't trapped in and identified with your emotions. The enlightened person is able to see things as they really are without distorting it through hang-ups, obsessions, and insecurities. By seeing things in their true nature, one would actually be more able to express that nature in art. The one thing you have to ask yourself is "Why is intense emotion so good?" If there was something deeper, more satisfying, and more beautiful than simply intense emotions—and if it was the truth—wouldn't you give up emotions for that? My understanding is that the Zen master has the capacity for emotions, but he or she is not TRAPPED in those emotions—there is always a little distance from them. Gurdjieff would argue that you can only have TRUE feelings once you have achieved self-realization. Everything we know now is worthless in comparison.

Mary Alice Scott:
On the zen philosophies=emotional nihilism . . .

I don't think so. I think zen is about not identifying so strongly with emotions, not defining your self by how you feel at the moment. I think the point of zen is to be passionate—passionate about finding the truth. And frustration and sorrow are really big parts of that. Like take my job at the moment. For me, working for the SKSF is very zen-like (talk about going in the direction of your fear!). I'm confronted every day with some part of myself that I haven't quite dealt with or didn't even know was there. So coming up against those parts of my personality and really facing them get me closer to the truth. They also bring up tons of really strong emotion.

Take talking on the phone for example. I was terrified of getting on the phone and talking to people I didn't know about the SKS. I was afraid they would reject me or yell at me or something, but for my job, I had to do it. So I did. And now I enjoy talking on the phone. I came to understand that my fear was really unfounded and my anxiety about getting on the phone is essentially gone. But that doesn't mean that I have lost emotion, or that I was trying to lose emotion. I was just trying to get myself untangled from it.

Kenny Felder:
On Conrad: I must admit that it's been a verrrry long time since I read Heart of Darkness. But my memory is pretty much like Ed's—a journey into the dark savage side of man, the primitive unconscious or the id, what is left when you strip away civilization and the superego. That is how I remember "The horror, the horror." What's so horrible? Not death and destruction. No one says "The horror, the horror" when the damage is caused by an Earthquake. The horror is that it is committed by man, and that we see that same capacity in ourselves.

On Emotion: I think it's good to say that "we don't want to lose our emotions, just become less identified with them" because trying to "lose" them would just be another form of pretending. If you're angry, you're angry. You don't have to act on it or identify with it, but you don't buy anything by pretending it isn't there.

But on the other hand, I also think that the goal is to move beyond emotions, toward something much more profound and real. But not something cold and passionless. If that sounds like a contradiction, consider this example. How are we to describe my state when I am tired, grumpy, and angry at my wife? My emotions at the time may be very negative, toward everything and especially toward her. I may not feel a trace of happiness or even love at that moment. That is my emotions. And yet, I know all the time that if she were in trouble, I would forget all about my anger and exhaustion and do anything I could to help her. So what is that? It is something that is temporarily below the surface, but something that always has the potential to take precedence over my emotions of the moment. It may be a step closer to what the enlightened man is in touch with. Not all the way there, but a step closer.